The Generations Network Shuts Down the Famous Census Images Site

Michael John Neill operates a great genealogy site, called RootDig. He has hosted many things on the site, but one of his most popular offerings has been images from census records, World War I draft registrations, passenger manifests, and other records that showed famous people. He openly stated that the images were obtained from Ancestry.com, and then he gave a lot of publicity to Ancestry.com besides.

I wrote about RootDig.com several times; you can find my past articles at http://tinyurl.com/359jyn. Now The Generations Network (TGN), parent company of Ancestry.com, has "requested" that Michael eliminate the images downloaded from Ancestry from his web site.

The following words are now displayed at http://www.rootdig.com/famouscensus.html:

Famous Census Pages - ever wonder what the rich and famous said when the censustaker came knocking? You can no longer find out here!

The new marketing staff at The Generations Network made me remove the images we formerly hosted on this site. The phrases "legal action" and "hear from legal department "were used. The pages clearly contained links to Ancestry, indicated where the images had been obtained, and indicated the value a subscription had for the average person.

Until I have time to view the NARA film myself and re-obtain the images, they will not be posted on this site.

Randy Seaver has written some interesting thoughts on the subject. You can read his words at http://randysmusings.blogspot.com/2007/05/posting-record-images-from-ancestrycom.html

Comments

[Happy Dae]

Another site gets the bite from De-Generations Network. The cost of these actions could run extremely high, assuming that "Good Will" rates anything among men on earth. Referrals are critical to Internet survival.

There is so much that is free on http://www.ShoeStringGenealogy.com/ssg1.htm, although there are no Ancestry/RootsWeb freebies they need concern themselves with.

Happy Dae

[Jason Presley]

If someone would just make an affordable, portable microfilm scanner, we could scan the documents ourselves and post on the web to our heart's content. Sure, we can print and scan a sheet of paper, but it's not the same.

Dick, have you seen any new microfilm scanning technology at any of the recent conferences you've attended?

[Joseph]

Here are a few thoughts on the Ancestry crisis. I suspect they are running scared right now. I was not surprised that they could not reach an agreement with the Family History Library about the use of their databases. After all, the FHL has announced that it will index and digitize all of its more than two and a half million microfilms and place the information on FamilySearch.com for Free. So once all the U.S. Census records are Free online, who will subscribe to that Ancestry database? Then when the FHL posts all the passenger lists free online, why would anyone want to pay Ancestry for a subscription? And then AncestryCanada, and AncestryGermany, and AncestryAustralia and all the rest of their databases. In ten years Ancestry might be a much smaller business, so they need "to make hay while the sun shines." Stay tuned. It will be an interesting future.

[Dave]

A few months ago, I chatted online with one of Ancestry's representatives, because I wanted to ask whether I could post parts of images from census records about our family on our family association website (if I too gave full credit and linked back to Ancestry). The representative was very wishy-washy, but essentially said that in their user agreement, it states that they can terminate my account and could pursue legal action.

I've said it before, but I think TGN's recent actions do two things: 1) allow startups like Foonote and World Vital Records to take more market share and 2) position the LDS Church very well to become the front-runner again in genealogy and stay there for a long time.

[Dick Eastman]

---> Dick, have you seen any new microfilm scanning technology at any of the recent conferences you've attended?

Yes, and I have written about them in this newsletter although not recently. I know that one article from seven years ago is available at http://eogn.com/archives/news0005.htm. I am on the road right now but probably can find other articles when I return home.

Such devices typically cost a few thousand dollars, out of the reach of many hobbyists but they could be attractive to societies or corporations.

HOWEVER, do not forget copyright issues. When dealing with public domain records, you are always free to travel to the original repository and to make images of the ORIGINAL documents, just as the microfilm producers did. However, you do not have automatic permission to make scanned copies of the derived microfilms. The person or society or company that created those microfilms has added convenience and organization to those images and those improvements typically are protected by copyrights.

Again, you always can legally scan originals but not any copies that have "value added." That's true of microfilm, microfiche, digital images or even books that republish original materials. You always need to check copyright laws first.

Insert standard disclaimer here: I am not a lawyer. The above represents my understanding after discussing this issue with a number of lawyers and other intellectual property experts. If you have questions, you are advised to seek advice from competent legal counsel BEFORE proceeding with any project involving reproductions of original records.

- Dick Eastman

[Dave S]

If these actions from TGN are affecting other people like they are me, I think TGN is shooting themselves in the foot. Every time I read something like this, it just gives me more incentive to donate more of my time to the LDS indexing project. TGN is assuring that the indexing project will be completed earlier than expected.

My original goal was to index 10 census pages. I have increased that to 100.

Dave S.

[Dino (All Dino, All the Time)]

Certainly, the FHL's Scanstone project has Ancestry running scared. Why else would they be burning every bridge they have crossed? They are systematically destroying whatever small amount of goodwill they have accrued in the past years.

When the FHL starts making their scanned images available on-line, I think that the days of a $300 annual Ancestry subscription are long gone. And who's to say that they will wait until the indexing is done to make these images available online for free? I sure haven't used an index for all of the rolls I've put through a reader at a FHC.

Like others who have posted in this forum, I, too, have started helping with the Family Sreach Indexing program. The software is easily downloaded and installed. And indexing is a snap! It takes me about 45 minutes to index a 50-name census page. I donate 3 of my lunch hours per week to do this. I should index about 150 pages a year at this rate. Just imagine if only 1,000 people do this - 150,000 pages per year. If 10,000 people do this - 1,500,000 pages a year!

As Bluto Blutarsky once said "Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?" It's time to stop complaining about Ancestry and take some action that will help your fellow genealogists!

[Laura]

Who bombed Pearl Harbor? See the value of consulting original records?

[theKiwi]

-> Who bombed Pearl Harbor? See the value of consulting original records?

It wasn't about who actually bombed Pearl Harbour, it was about who said "When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour"

Here's an original record, or at least very close to original to show that the quoute posted by Dino was correct
(Warning - contains adult language)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K92OVFeGgIE

Roger

[Jason Presley]

---> Again, you always can legally scan originals but not any copies that have "value added." That's true of microfilm, microfiche, digital images or even books that republish original materials.

Ah, yes, I was thinking in the wrong direction again.

[Bill C.]

Certainly, the newly-organized TGN doesn't understand the overall good nature of the genealogy world. I understand that they want to protect their property, but verbally attacking genealogy types is like siccing your dog on the milkman.

Bill C.
GenealogyBuff.com

[Dino (All Dino, All the Time)]

Kiwi,

Thanks for posting that link to Bluto's speech, which at one time led readers to the original record (or should I say video) and showed a perfect example of copyright infringement. I'm sure that the video poster didn't get approval from the copyright holder before giving us a glimpse into Delta House.

Dick will probably remember that I am a strong proponent of the copyright system, but somehow I'm not sure that copyright can protect a single page out of an entire census. It seems like that is an acceptable instance of the fair use provision. If Ancestry wants to revoke the accounts of everyone who has put one of their images into a publication, they won't have many customers left.

Maybe the Ancestry management needs to read "Who Moved My Cheese."

[Dallan Quass]

There is an interesting case where a New York court ruled that color transparencies of paintings in the public domain are not protected by copyright due to lack of originality. See http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/36_FSupp2d_191.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_Ltd._v._Corel_Corporation for more information.

[Dennis]

The FHL uses the term "Contract" to restrict how people can use thier films. But here are a few things I found when I went looking into the Public Domain issue.

A Professor of Law put this topic in terms I could understand, "The content is not copyrighted and there is debate about even the image".

A response from the Library of Congress "Merely reformatting a work is not considered copyrightable authorship. There would have to be the addition of an appreciable amount of original copyrightable matter in order to support a claim to copyright, and, even then, the copyright would not extend to the public domain matter".

Maybe if Ancestry uses the term "contract" they can restrict how their images can be is used.

[Dennis Lohr]

Any time there are two genealogists talking, the discussion will be eventually turn towards the miserable distant cousin who "stole my research". How hypocritical to fire barbs at Ancestry for attempting to curb the same practice that gets the ire of so many genealogists.

As for TGN, if they did not enforce their contract with Mr. Neill then the door has been potentially opened for other, far less scrupulous websites. The "NO DOGS ALLOWED" sign at the park is not for the responsible owner with a plastic bag and their dog on a leash ....

[Joseph O'Connor]

As an amateur genealogist I like free access to historical databases - after all isn't it records of our ancestors - that "they created" - that we are looking for! So the "public domain" argument is somewhat stronger for me personally. Unfortunately nowadays, not everyone uses public access to information for upstanding/legitimate reasons. So announcements like http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18393468/ I am sure are going to keep adding fuel to the "Open vs. Closed Source" debate which seems to be taking the computing industry by storm these days.

I believe TGN, aka Ancestry.com, has added value to their databases and that they can charge whatever they like for access; however, that doesn't mean I have to use their product. I also think the FamilySearch Indexing project is great - it will be great to have free access to "a complete" Census database, for example. I think this can be a win-win for all parties concerned - Ancestry.com can move on to providing other "value added" databases and free access databases also continue growing!

[Dixie Lee English]

Hi,

Somewhere I saved your newsletter with the article on "TNG" for site building, (believe I clicked it in my favorites & each mont6hs has gone over it when saved;& SimplyHosting as one of the hosts. I want to send it to someone & cannot locate it. I know it was around 1 year & three months ago and want to have it myself. Please advise.

Many Thanks

[Dick Eastman]

Look at the menus in the upper right side of this page and most every other page in this newsletter. Scroll down until you see "Search this Site," right below the Google logo. In that space, enter: TNG

Click on "Search this Site." That will show every article ever published in this newsletter about TNG.

Thanks.

- Dick Eastman

[Dixie Lee English]

TNG-Found it, sent it, saved it. Thank you so very much. I can't believe I've read your e-mails for eons & did not know that.

My site is being rebuilt, therefore I had not entered the whole URL name.

Cheers